Oh Pandora 😭 my 11 year old is about to finish Y6 and I am ALL OVER THE PLACE with giving / not giving her a smartphone. I don’t want to…but literally her entire 90-person year other than her has one already. Can your v clever techy brother give us all a primer on how he’s managed his brilliant, wonderful, balanced-sounding daughters’ phones! (In the next newsletter please. Have just deleted my own Instagram account in horror 😉) I loved and valued the time and thought you’d ploughed into this interview / newsletter. Thank you ❤️
It's actually party of ScreenTime on the Apple devices. You have a child as a 'child' on your account and you can then set limits. Once the time is up, the app starts working. It's also possible to have them disappear, but that's a bit more complicated. I used to use a company to do it, but now you can do it with standard Apple control, so I just use that.
Thank you for this thorough review of Haidts book, as a data analyst in real life I doubt the numbers of his work, but I don't totally disagree with his findings. I am an elder millennial and grew up with and without the internet. And even I, someone who didn't have social media until her early 20s, had to learn how to put my phone aside and not treat it like an additional body part. If even I have trouble with it, then teenagers now will have trouble with it too.
A total ban seems pointless, even dangerous. Especially for teenagers in unsafe environments who then would have no way of finding resources to help. But I would totally be up for smartphone free areas. Like no smartphones in classrooms, none at the dinner table, none during family time on the couch, etc.
I find all of this really fascinating, yet I struggle with finding my own way on how to teach this to the next generation.
Totally agree. I don't think smartphones have any place in schools or dining tables (and lots of other places!) and I think a ban would just feel like prohibition - in that we are taking away something that has been widely consumed and metabolised into youth culture. But I would love to be proven wrong! Also - that's fascinating you're a data analyst, because one of the major criticisms appears to be that he is reading the data very differently to the psychologists specialising in adolescent mental health - one of whom, Lucy Foulkes, has recently joined the comment section!
Really enjoyed your review of Haidt’s work. He’s gotten a lot of coverage but I learned several new things reading your take, so thank you. He’s public enemy #1 for the social networks (youth being the most coveted demographic for advertising based models) and they are on overdrive funding opposition to his work. Awesome to ear about Eton funding flip phones. Governor Glenn Youngkin of Virginia just banned phones from schools. We have been challenged in the US by the octogenarians in Washington not quite grokking smart phones are worse than tobacco….
Isn't it wild that Haidt's biggest critics - tech giants and psychologists specialising in adolescent mental health - have otherwise absolutely nothing in common!? Also thank you for teaching me the word 'grokking' which I am now vv into
A great balanced piece. I really like how Haidt does address some of the criticisms aimed at some of this claims. And I am yet to read his book, but it’s on my list!
I’m an ex psychology teacher in my 40s and over my career (17 years), I saw how phones become commonplace pretty much everywhere in the schools I worked in. I definitely saw how they could be useful in some lesson activities, but mostly I found it hindered me doing my job effectively. They were a distraction and a lot of the time I was badgering students to put them away/or I would confiscate them.
But two things stand out for me looking back about phone use over my career. A lot of bullying between students appeared to move online both during and after school time, making it harder for us as teachers to deal with. For example, if it takes place outside of school but involves a school-related chat, who is responsible in dealing with it?
And also, many senior managers at schools were more worried about pissing off parents if they brought in some kind is phone ban.
Thanks again for a fantastic piece and apologies for the lengthy comment!!
That is such a good point - if it's school-related, but out of school, whose responsibility is it? (I'd say 'not the schools' but I'll bet not all parents felt that way!)
Great post and fascinating subject that I think is relevant for anyone with a smart phone. It made me buy the book. I recently removed all social media from my phone, so I can only access it through my laptop and now spend less time just staring at it. They call it doom scrolling for a reason. I think social media has a role to play but should not be so readily available. I would love time limits on accounts determining how long you can access them in any one day. After 30/60mins you are locked out until the next day. Can we access the audio for the interview anywhere else? @pandorasykes
Guttingly not. How To Academy were recording it for a podcast and recording it for their streaming platform (like they usually do) and the audio that went across both, failed! RE: setting time limits, I think that's really sensical. Probs makes more sense than me just arbitraily deleting them and then having to keep a list of things to do, when I next download them! RE: doomscrolling, I wrote this piece a few years about joyscrolling :)
As a teenager who had major untreated/undiagnosed mental health issues in 2010 (and earlier), I find it odd that Haidt seems to posit the stats from that time almost as an acceptable baseline with the issue now being that the stats have increased by so much. No doubt smartphones are part of the convo, but we still hardly talk about the huge prevalence of child abuse as a factor in teen mental health. I know that was the main reason for my issues, and I have no confidence that a teenager now is less likely to face abuse at home than in 2010.
+1 to this. Explaining all the sides is the best we can do. But I agree — as someone who's had lifelong mental health issues brought about (in part) by complex family issues, I wonder how many teens Haidt has actually spoken to in his work. Self-reported data is flawed, to be sure, but this sounds like someone who is willing to take teens' word for it when it's in a data set, but doesn't really listen to them in conversation (if they're had at all). Teens don't know what the underlying causes are (because they're underlying by definition), but their thoughts and opinions have value. Something that I think continues to be forgotten, even as we talk "around" them about what's wrong with them. 🥴
I believe we're still just scratching the surface on trauma and the many ways it affects development, even into adulthood. Which, sure, always existed — but a crucial point Haidt seems to be missing is that not having words or spaces to describe a thing means we're forced to develop other coping mechanisms to deal (like overworking and functional alcoholism — which only recently are starting to be seen as "less acceptable / actually harmful" by society). So, yes, telling teens they're anxious might make them more anxious, or it could be the natural consequences of finally ripping off a Band-Aid (i.e., actually talking about mental health) that in the past, we ignored, until the next generation of parents came up and taught the same faulty coping mechanisms to their kids, as best they knew how.
Maybe it's not as simple as "teens are more anxious because we're talking about it," but that we've acknowledged these generational coping mechanisms don't work, and teens don't have enough resources (or to your point, safe spaces) to teach them healthier ones to replace them. I definitely felt a dip in my capability when I was diagnosed in my early 20s — I'm just glad I had a mostly-formed frontal lobe and the resources and loved ones to help me see that all healing takes time. We as a society don't like things that take time. 😶🌫️
Well this was chockablock full of insights and fun! Loved the interview, and as a fellow journo, honestly gobsmacked and super impressed that you could remember this much from the convo with corrupted audio. That happened to me once and it remains the reason I can still jot down bonkers, semi-illegible notes while maintaining eye contact, just in case (which obviously wouldn't have been possible here, so the compliment STANDS!).
I just started reading Paris Hilton's memoir and have been quite enjoying it so far. I find her and her journey fascinating — she's just one of the many early aughts "divas" who were exploited and mistreated while in (or because they were in) the spotlight. Like teen anxiety, it's a complex issue with many factors at play, but I appreciate that she focuses on the one undeniably harmful factor that she can take action on (predatory, should-be-illegal boarding schools) and is doing what she can. The cynical part of me says there's always a PR angle with celebs, but the human part of me says that "doing what you can with what privileges you have" is the best we can expect from (and really, what we owe to) each other. Particularly those who have experienced such severe trauma — so good on her.
Oh I did not realise she had a memoir out!! I think the thing I find most fascinating is how much her voice has changed since she filmed The Simple Life. Makes me wonder how much of ‘Paris Hilton’ then was a caricature…
100%! Based only on what I've read so far, I'd venture a lot of it. She even mentions in the first chapters how your vocal cords constrict when you're nervous and push your register higher (and how discovering that fact later as an adult made sense to her, because she spent a lot of her childhood / adolescence nervous and "acting"). So interesting.
For any parents interested in further reading on the topic of social media/smartphones, I'd really recommend the below, all written by researchers in this field. In particular, I think these pieces offer some reassurance by arguing the situation may not be as bad or as straightforward as Haidt has suggested:
For those on Twitter/X, I'd really recommend following these researchers, who share lots of useful content reflecting on the latest social media and mental health research: Pete Etchells, Chris Ferguson, Candice Odgers, Amy Orben, Andrew Przybylski (and me! Lucy Foulkes)
Thank you so much for adding your thoughts, Lucy! I so appreciated speaking with you before the interview and now, again, here. I thought it might be worth also copy pasting your follow-up with me about those horrifying teenage suicide statistics, for other readers. I am only sorry I didn't have them to hand, ahead of the interview:
It's worth saying a few things about the suicide stats, if you will humour me, in the hope that I can offer you a bit of reassurance- because I totally agree, any possibility of teenage suicides increasing is really worrying. But if we look at the research beyond what Haidt cites, the picture is less frightening. From my reading, the story of 'teen suicides are increasing everywhere' isn't accurate. A lot of people have criticised Haidt for this claim - in particular, it seems unique to the US (the increase is not happening in Europe) - see this article by a psych prof Christopher Ferguson which really informed my thinking, with this graph showing suicide rates in Europe (no UK data but you get the idea)
<I CAN'T INSERT GRAPH HERE ANNOYINGLY>
So, this somewhat weakens Haidt's argument - because smartphones/soc media use is happening everywhere, including in the places where suicides aren't rising, so the smartphone/social media = suicide increase can't be straightforwardly true. This also suggests there is something specific happening in the US that we need to understand - see this helpful article about how changes in the education system there have led to increase academic pressure (this guy Peter Gray, another psych prof, has written about 8 of these v helpful deep dive posts if you have the appetite for it....). But again, it's never going to be just one thing - increased social media use is likely relevant, but as one piece of a big, messy puzzle.
Thank you for this - fuming for you over the corrupted file and gutted for us that we can’t listen but as per, you did an excellent job of recreating it for us.
I have a 13yo boy just finishing year 8 who has no real interest in SM (thank god). He feels that it makes most people in school “dicks” and adults “phone obsessed”. Despite this, he is very attached to the premier league app and the News app to the point that we agreed to put app limits on them. I do think if he’d been given a run at SM, he’d be just as locked in as others. He’s loves his tunes and is a good reader, but I can see how the phone impacts these pursuits. I really liked some of the suggests made here but v conscious that bans will only kick the issue into the long grass with no help from big tech on the horizon.
Great newsletter this week. Computers weren't really part of my schooling, but I recently started an OU degree and find myself easily distracted by my phone if I don't put it well out of the way, so I can only imagine how it is for those who've grown up with them. (And I too found that Rishi Sunak tweet hilarious!) Pretty much everything you mention resonates with me...so I shall have to watch Spent when I get the chance!
Another FABULOUS read on anxiety for this generation is:
The Twenty Something Treatment by Dr Meg Jay.
I listened to it on audible but have bought the book too as it is so useful.
Oh I love Dr Meg Jay. Her book The Defining Decade all about 20somethings was passed from friend to friend when we were in our 20s.
Oh Pandora 😭 my 11 year old is about to finish Y6 and I am ALL OVER THE PLACE with giving / not giving her a smartphone. I don’t want to…but literally her entire 90-person year other than her has one already. Can your v clever techy brother give us all a primer on how he’s managed his brilliant, wonderful, balanced-sounding daughters’ phones! (In the next newsletter please. Have just deleted my own Instagram account in horror 😉) I loved and valued the time and thought you’d ploughed into this interview / newsletter. Thank you ❤️
I asked him for you Lucy, and he said:
It's actually party of ScreenTime on the Apple devices. You have a child as a 'child' on your account and you can then set limits. Once the time is up, the app starts working. It's also possible to have them disappear, but that's a bit more complicated. I used to use a company to do it, but now you can do it with standard Apple control, so I just use that.
Thank you for this thorough review of Haidts book, as a data analyst in real life I doubt the numbers of his work, but I don't totally disagree with his findings. I am an elder millennial and grew up with and without the internet. And even I, someone who didn't have social media until her early 20s, had to learn how to put my phone aside and not treat it like an additional body part. If even I have trouble with it, then teenagers now will have trouble with it too.
A total ban seems pointless, even dangerous. Especially for teenagers in unsafe environments who then would have no way of finding resources to help. But I would totally be up for smartphone free areas. Like no smartphones in classrooms, none at the dinner table, none during family time on the couch, etc.
I find all of this really fascinating, yet I struggle with finding my own way on how to teach this to the next generation.
Totally agree. I don't think smartphones have any place in schools or dining tables (and lots of other places!) and I think a ban would just feel like prohibition - in that we are taking away something that has been widely consumed and metabolised into youth culture. But I would love to be proven wrong! Also - that's fascinating you're a data analyst, because one of the major criticisms appears to be that he is reading the data very differently to the psychologists specialising in adolescent mental health - one of whom, Lucy Foulkes, has recently joined the comment section!
Really enjoyed your review of Haidt’s work. He’s gotten a lot of coverage but I learned several new things reading your take, so thank you. He’s public enemy #1 for the social networks (youth being the most coveted demographic for advertising based models) and they are on overdrive funding opposition to his work. Awesome to ear about Eton funding flip phones. Governor Glenn Youngkin of Virginia just banned phones from schools. We have been challenged in the US by the octogenarians in Washington not quite grokking smart phones are worse than tobacco….
Isn't it wild that Haidt's biggest critics - tech giants and psychologists specialising in adolescent mental health - have otherwise absolutely nothing in common!? Also thank you for teaching me the word 'grokking' which I am now vv into
A great balanced piece. I really like how Haidt does address some of the criticisms aimed at some of this claims. And I am yet to read his book, but it’s on my list!
I’m an ex psychology teacher in my 40s and over my career (17 years), I saw how phones become commonplace pretty much everywhere in the schools I worked in. I definitely saw how they could be useful in some lesson activities, but mostly I found it hindered me doing my job effectively. They were a distraction and a lot of the time I was badgering students to put them away/or I would confiscate them.
But two things stand out for me looking back about phone use over my career. A lot of bullying between students appeared to move online both during and after school time, making it harder for us as teachers to deal with. For example, if it takes place outside of school but involves a school-related chat, who is responsible in dealing with it?
And also, many senior managers at schools were more worried about pissing off parents if they brought in some kind is phone ban.
Thanks again for a fantastic piece and apologies for the lengthy comment!!
That is such a good point - if it's school-related, but out of school, whose responsibility is it? (I'd say 'not the schools' but I'll bet not all parents felt that way!)
Great post and fascinating subject that I think is relevant for anyone with a smart phone. It made me buy the book. I recently removed all social media from my phone, so I can only access it through my laptop and now spend less time just staring at it. They call it doom scrolling for a reason. I think social media has a role to play but should not be so readily available. I would love time limits on accounts determining how long you can access them in any one day. After 30/60mins you are locked out until the next day. Can we access the audio for the interview anywhere else? @pandorasykes
Guttingly not. How To Academy were recording it for a podcast and recording it for their streaming platform (like they usually do) and the audio that went across both, failed! RE: setting time limits, I think that's really sensical. Probs makes more sense than me just arbitraily deleting them and then having to keep a list of things to do, when I next download them! RE: doomscrolling, I wrote this piece a few years about joyscrolling :)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/13/good-news-how-i-broke-my-doomscrolling-habit
What a great post!
As a teenager who had major untreated/undiagnosed mental health issues in 2010 (and earlier), I find it odd that Haidt seems to posit the stats from that time almost as an acceptable baseline with the issue now being that the stats have increased by so much. No doubt smartphones are part of the convo, but we still hardly talk about the huge prevalence of child abuse as a factor in teen mental health. I know that was the main reason for my issues, and I have no confidence that a teenager now is less likely to face abuse at home than in 2010.
I'm so sorry to hear this, Hayley.
+1 to this. Explaining all the sides is the best we can do. But I agree — as someone who's had lifelong mental health issues brought about (in part) by complex family issues, I wonder how many teens Haidt has actually spoken to in his work. Self-reported data is flawed, to be sure, but this sounds like someone who is willing to take teens' word for it when it's in a data set, but doesn't really listen to them in conversation (if they're had at all). Teens don't know what the underlying causes are (because they're underlying by definition), but their thoughts and opinions have value. Something that I think continues to be forgotten, even as we talk "around" them about what's wrong with them. 🥴
I believe we're still just scratching the surface on trauma and the many ways it affects development, even into adulthood. Which, sure, always existed — but a crucial point Haidt seems to be missing is that not having words or spaces to describe a thing means we're forced to develop other coping mechanisms to deal (like overworking and functional alcoholism — which only recently are starting to be seen as "less acceptable / actually harmful" by society). So, yes, telling teens they're anxious might make them more anxious, or it could be the natural consequences of finally ripping off a Band-Aid (i.e., actually talking about mental health) that in the past, we ignored, until the next generation of parents came up and taught the same faulty coping mechanisms to their kids, as best they knew how.
Maybe it's not as simple as "teens are more anxious because we're talking about it," but that we've acknowledged these generational coping mechanisms don't work, and teens don't have enough resources (or to your point, safe spaces) to teach them healthier ones to replace them. I definitely felt a dip in my capability when I was diagnosed in my early 20s — I'm just glad I had a mostly-formed frontal lobe and the resources and loved ones to help me see that all healing takes time. We as a society don't like things that take time. 😶🌫️
Well this was chockablock full of insights and fun! Loved the interview, and as a fellow journo, honestly gobsmacked and super impressed that you could remember this much from the convo with corrupted audio. That happened to me once and it remains the reason I can still jot down bonkers, semi-illegible notes while maintaining eye contact, just in case (which obviously wouldn't have been possible here, so the compliment STANDS!).
I just started reading Paris Hilton's memoir and have been quite enjoying it so far. I find her and her journey fascinating — she's just one of the many early aughts "divas" who were exploited and mistreated while in (or because they were in) the spotlight. Like teen anxiety, it's a complex issue with many factors at play, but I appreciate that she focuses on the one undeniably harmful factor that she can take action on (predatory, should-be-illegal boarding schools) and is doing what she can. The cynical part of me says there's always a PR angle with celebs, but the human part of me says that "doing what you can with what privileges you have" is the best we can expect from (and really, what we owe to) each other. Particularly those who have experienced such severe trauma — so good on her.
Oh I did not realise she had a memoir out!! I think the thing I find most fascinating is how much her voice has changed since she filmed The Simple Life. Makes me wonder how much of ‘Paris Hilton’ then was a caricature…
100%! Based only on what I've read so far, I'd venture a lot of it. She even mentions in the first chapters how your vocal cords constrict when you're nervous and push your register higher (and how discovering that fact later as an adult made sense to her, because she spent a lot of her childhood / adolescence nervous and "acting"). So interesting.
The data is terrifying!
For any parents interested in further reading on the topic of social media/smartphones, I'd really recommend the below, all written by researchers in this field. In particular, I think these pieces offer some reassurance by arguing the situation may not be as bad or as straightforward as Haidt has suggested:
https://petergray.substack.com/p/d8-multiple-causes-of-increase-in
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/parenting4digitalfuture/2024/05/15/haidt/
https://thehill.com/opinion/technology/4653625-the-new-moral-panic-social-media-mental-health-state-bans/
https://technosapiens.substack.com/p/making-sense-of-the-anxious-generation
For those on Twitter/X, I'd really recommend following these researchers, who share lots of useful content reflecting on the latest social media and mental health research: Pete Etchells, Chris Ferguson, Candice Odgers, Amy Orben, Andrew Przybylski (and me! Lucy Foulkes)
Thank you so much for adding your thoughts, Lucy! I so appreciated speaking with you before the interview and now, again, here. I thought it might be worth also copy pasting your follow-up with me about those horrifying teenage suicide statistics, for other readers. I am only sorry I didn't have them to hand, ahead of the interview:
It's worth saying a few things about the suicide stats, if you will humour me, in the hope that I can offer you a bit of reassurance- because I totally agree, any possibility of teenage suicides increasing is really worrying. But if we look at the research beyond what Haidt cites, the picture is less frightening. From my reading, the story of 'teen suicides are increasing everywhere' isn't accurate. A lot of people have criticised Haidt for this claim - in particular, it seems unique to the US (the increase is not happening in Europe) - see this article by a psych prof Christopher Ferguson which really informed my thinking, with this graph showing suicide rates in Europe (no UK data but you get the idea)
<I CAN'T INSERT GRAPH HERE ANNOYINGLY>
So, this somewhat weakens Haidt's argument - because smartphones/soc media use is happening everywhere, including in the places where suicides aren't rising, so the smartphone/social media = suicide increase can't be straightforwardly true. This also suggests there is something specific happening in the US that we need to understand - see this helpful article about how changes in the education system there have led to increase academic pressure (this guy Peter Gray, another psych prof, has written about 8 of these v helpful deep dive posts if you have the appetite for it....). But again, it's never going to be just one thing - increased social media use is likely relevant, but as one piece of a big, messy puzzle.
Thank you for this - fuming for you over the corrupted file and gutted for us that we can’t listen but as per, you did an excellent job of recreating it for us.
I have a 13yo boy just finishing year 8 who has no real interest in SM (thank god). He feels that it makes most people in school “dicks” and adults “phone obsessed”. Despite this, he is very attached to the premier league app and the News app to the point that we agreed to put app limits on them. I do think if he’d been given a run at SM, he’d be just as locked in as others. He’s loves his tunes and is a good reader, but I can see how the phone impacts these pursuits. I really liked some of the suggests made here but v conscious that bans will only kick the issue into the long grass with no help from big tech on the horizon.
So brilliant P, so intrigued about him/his book.
Great newsletter this week. Computers weren't really part of my schooling, but I recently started an OU degree and find myself easily distracted by my phone if I don't put it well out of the way, so I can only imagine how it is for those who've grown up with them. (And I too found that Rishi Sunak tweet hilarious!) Pretty much everything you mention resonates with me...so I shall have to watch Spent when I get the chance!
I love it so much, I am texting my best friends and sister daily until they watch it