Really enjoyed this fascinating interview. I’m not a parent but I teach university students, who are on the tail end of adolescence. My own students seem to have a healthier relationship to social media than perhaps younger teens do, but they are enormously distracted by their phones and I do think their attention spans are negatively impacted. But we could also say the same about adults (I certainly feel this way about myself). It’s easy to forget how new smartphones are: we’re all still figuring out the role this tech plays in our lives, for better or for worse.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Young people are distracted by phones, but so are adults. Children model adults! (I'm also hopeful that much of this is because we are still in the nascent era of smartphones. That all will be very different in 10 years time.)
Excellent interview with some good points to take away re: social media for teens. As an educator working in Australia where it is legislated that phones are banned in government schools, it has been a net positive for learning; however, the social media ban for under 16 is coming into effect in Australia shortly will be interesting to see how it’s enforced and what impact it has on mental health, if at all. I think where there’s a will there’s a way for teens and they will still use social media. Educating them on safe use rather than abstinence is probably a better option (much like sex).
I'll be really interested to see how things play out in Australia. I just can't figure out how it would work practically, given that it's not possible to monitor teenagers all the time. The abstinence-only sex education fiasco is a really good example - when you are dealing with a biological imperative (like developing peer relationships and developing your own identity - two key adolescent processes that happen on smartphones), you are better off going down the 'teach them to do it safely' route. Otherwise some of them will just do it anyway, but with less knowledge and less support if something goes wrong... But I also totally sympathise that this is a hard argument to make, given how problematic phones can sometimes be!
This was fascinating and a very scientific approach to a complicated problem. I suppose hearing the fact that 'we just don't know yet' can be difficult for parents who just want solutions, and so Haidt becomes very appealing. Great to see the other side of the coin though - thanks so much for sharing.
That's exactly it. In the modern chaos, we just want the RIGHT answer. As a parent of multiple children, I empathise so entirely with that. But the nuance is so key, with this one, in order to establish healthy and *realistic* outcomes.
Thank you. I totally sympathise - I sometimes think there is a chasm between the research world, where people are debating the stats and the study design etc and waiting years to collect data, and then parents who actually just need to know what to do right now. I think my best advice is to look at people who are being thoughtful and pragmatic, and allow some form of supported phone use gradually, like Tech Without Stress as I mentioned - my view is that more extreme approaches just creates more fear (and arguments!)
As a parent of teen boys, I’m thrilled more people are talking about the impact of social media, phone use, etc. Happy to be part of the conversation as I navigate parenthood. I fear many are avoiding the topic and perhaps this is fear, naivety, avoidance or countless other reasons.
I will say that substitute teaching opened my eyes to how difficult it is for teachers to teach with phones in the classroom. I for one would love to see them out of school entirely.
I can totally imagine that. I personally hate phones. Hate it when people get them out during mealtimes, hate it when people text in the middle of our conversation, hate seeing mindless scrolling everywhere I look. But ironically, it is my parents in their late 70s who do this, much more than my teenage nieces!
My parents are the same - it does amuse me when I go home and they are both sat on the sofa playing on their phones! This is not just a teenager phenomenon
Yes!! It’s an epidemic. We have to remind my mother in law when she’s visiting that we don’t allow phones during meal times and her response is “I’ll do what I want. I’m an adult.” 😳
Both her and my Dad are widows and I think all the alone time has made it even worse. Their phones are now their closest companions.
I feel like keeping them out of learning spaces is a sensible thing to try and do, although amazingly there's not been much actual research yet on the effects of doing this vs not doing this (it feels intuitively obvious that no phones = better learning, but we need to be cautious about assuming anything in this space).
My son is 7 but I see 100+ students every week in a uni classroom. I really appreciated this perspective and scientific approach.
The phones seem to be a major impediment to learning, if not as much on MH as Haidt would suggest. I have students who just scroll while I'm teaching or when their classmates are talking. And they are openly twitchy if they don't have their phone. I don't think they are taking anything in but also it's SHOCKINGLY RUDE... and I worry about them in adulthood. Not like adults are any better - regularly watch grown adults watching endless videos WITHOUT headphones on the train, nearly walk in front of traffic scrolling etc.
As a lecturer, I see a ton of MH concerns (often with very clinical language employed), and I find it so hard to figure out how to respond. It's just so unclear when they are using very precise clinical language - is this student in actual crisis with a need for emergency response? Or do they just having a bit of a tough time and need an extension? I spend many early morning hours worrying I've missed something and I'm going to get a horrific phone call.
Yeah it’s fascinating, that part, I agree. How do you hold the space and validate without exacerbating? That part of Lucy’s work is the part I find most interesting
This phenomenon of much more MH language is being seen internationally at universities (and schools). And everyone is asking this same tricky question about how much of it is a rise in the problem and how much of it is a change in language. And how do we ask those questions without dismissing or missing distress (or overreacting to a transient case of distress)
This is such a great interview, the right questions asked and Lucy’s view refreshingly calm, balanced and positive. As a school counsellor working in a London secondary school, a lot of the themes resonated with me. Thank you
What a fab interview! I loved the comments on what actually defines peer pressure (which makes a tonne of sense how often the term is misunderstood/misused) and phones in schools debate. So good in theory but the logistics are clearly an absolute nightmare, kids are so smart of course they have found all the ways around those locking systems. And the relationship between phones/class/social mobility can't be overlooked !!!! I remember it at school with BBM on blackberries and then subsequently when the first iphones came out - it became huge social currency.
The anecdote about the girl who was so angry she didn't have BDP is really interesting!
It's good to know despite being many years away from being a teenager, I still know whats up emoji wise - receiving a thumbs up is peak!! something my mum can't get her head round.
You raise exactly the points that I think are being overlooked, which is a) logistics and b) how bans don't work (um, prohibition?) and can exacerbate the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. No-one is saying that phones are net good for young kids. But it's about education (as most things are) and the parental-kid relationship... Something my brother did, which I thought was a fantastic idea, is that the WiFi didn't work in his kids rooms. They could use their phones and laptops downstairs but not tucked away in their bedrooms, which is where i think the majority of the 'bad stuff' happens: in those intimate spaces. Nothing is ever a net bad, as much as people want it to be. PS, I prefer a heart to a thumbs up tbf
I did just that. Grabbed a cuppa & biscuits in the sunshine. Really comprehensive breakdown of so many interlocking themes. I like the use of the term ' Teenagers are 'famously mecurial' Note to self re my teen.I would add that some schools do not necessarily have environments where teachers are communicating & engaging with students. Speaking isn't allowed in tutor time. The school day ends in silent reading. What used to be my experience c. 1970s/1980s, pastoral care was flexible and available to students; it just isn't there in some learning environments. We know that social isolation is a huge risk factor for poor mental health but some schools don't see that as an issue in the ' Modern age'. Not every Teen is engaged in social media. I agree it's easy to be assumptive and for parents to be easily triggered. We need to check in with ourselves too..
That's such an interesting note on how pastoral care has changed. (Virtually non-existent for me in the early 00s.) Maybe it connects to what Lucy was saying about how much more aggressively academic school has become? Less time for pastoral care. I think that note on how easily triggered parents are, is also pertinent. It's hard not to bring your own experiences to this. If you have a child who has an unhealthy relationship with their smartphone, or you know of one who has (say someone being bullied via social media), you are going to, quite understandably, feel very strongly about them being net bad. I think most people are approaching it through anecdata rather than actual data.
This is a really important point - everyone knows specific stories where phones can be really awful (including me), and those anecdotal stories are so powerful. It's totally understandable why, when something happens in your own house in particular, you just wish smartphones were never invented
So interesting to hear about the pushback on The Anxious Generation! I expect any way forward will rely on kids learning how to manage their screen and social media use. I'm currently dreadful at that myself so trying to get better at it before my kids start asking for phones.
I think a lot of what Haidt says is really interesting. Same with his first book. But I do think it's important that a) he does not work in the field of adolescent psychology and b) there is huge controversy over how he interprets/ 'teases' out/ extrapolates data. It's just important to be cognisant of it, I think, when engaging with his work. I'd personally love to see more kids playing outside. But that has to be viewed in the context of how many youth spaces have been shut done! From libraries to sports centres to village halls. Teens spending time online is often because access to free, community spaces has been grossly diminished...
I love this. There's some really interesting work being done about designing public space for teenagers - TfL are planning a play space in Kidbrooke square that includes a meditation and yoga space, following consultation with teens. It'd be great to these design approaches expanded
I had no idea about TfL! Going to read up on this. Have you read The Lonely Century by Noreena Hertz? She has some fascinating research on how hostile public spaces have become (and how that has impacted loneliness) for EG spikes on bollards so teenagers can't loiter, benches being taken away from public areas
Thanks - re pushback against Anxious Generation among researchers, it really has been massive, on a scale I've not seen before - no one studying the effects of social media thinks he has fairly described the data. If you're interested in managing your own phone use, I'd really recommend Pete Etchells' work, including his book Unlocked- he offers a reassuring and helpful perspective on how to think about our own phone use (as well as young people's).
Really enjoyed this fascinating interview. I’m not a parent but I teach university students, who are on the tail end of adolescence. My own students seem to have a healthier relationship to social media than perhaps younger teens do, but they are enormously distracted by their phones and I do think their attention spans are negatively impacted. But we could also say the same about adults (I certainly feel this way about myself). It’s easy to forget how new smartphones are: we’re all still figuring out the role this tech plays in our lives, for better or for worse.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Young people are distracted by phones, but so are adults. Children model adults! (I'm also hopeful that much of this is because we are still in the nascent era of smartphones. That all will be very different in 10 years time.)
Thanks so much. And yes I agree, we often criticise young people for being obsessed with their phones but so many adults are too (including myself!)
Excellent interview with some good points to take away re: social media for teens. As an educator working in Australia where it is legislated that phones are banned in government schools, it has been a net positive for learning; however, the social media ban for under 16 is coming into effect in Australia shortly will be interesting to see how it’s enforced and what impact it has on mental health, if at all. I think where there’s a will there’s a way for teens and they will still use social media. Educating them on safe use rather than abstinence is probably a better option (much like sex).
Agree. You only need to look at the soaring rate of STDs in the 90s in America during abstinence-only sex education to see how that works out…!
I'll be really interested to see how things play out in Australia. I just can't figure out how it would work practically, given that it's not possible to monitor teenagers all the time. The abstinence-only sex education fiasco is a really good example - when you are dealing with a biological imperative (like developing peer relationships and developing your own identity - two key adolescent processes that happen on smartphones), you are better off going down the 'teach them to do it safely' route. Otherwise some of them will just do it anyway, but with less knowledge and less support if something goes wrong... But I also totally sympathise that this is a hard argument to make, given how problematic phones can sometimes be!
This was fascinating and a very scientific approach to a complicated problem. I suppose hearing the fact that 'we just don't know yet' can be difficult for parents who just want solutions, and so Haidt becomes very appealing. Great to see the other side of the coin though - thanks so much for sharing.
That's exactly it. In the modern chaos, we just want the RIGHT answer. As a parent of multiple children, I empathise so entirely with that. But the nuance is so key, with this one, in order to establish healthy and *realistic* outcomes.
Thank you. I totally sympathise - I sometimes think there is a chasm between the research world, where people are debating the stats and the study design etc and waiting years to collect data, and then parents who actually just need to know what to do right now. I think my best advice is to look at people who are being thoughtful and pragmatic, and allow some form of supported phone use gradually, like Tech Without Stress as I mentioned - my view is that more extreme approaches just creates more fear (and arguments!)
As a parent of teen boys, I’m thrilled more people are talking about the impact of social media, phone use, etc. Happy to be part of the conversation as I navigate parenthood. I fear many are avoiding the topic and perhaps this is fear, naivety, avoidance or countless other reasons.
I will say that substitute teaching opened my eyes to how difficult it is for teachers to teach with phones in the classroom. I for one would love to see them out of school entirely.
I can totally imagine that. I personally hate phones. Hate it when people get them out during mealtimes, hate it when people text in the middle of our conversation, hate seeing mindless scrolling everywhere I look. But ironically, it is my parents in their late 70s who do this, much more than my teenage nieces!
My parents are the same - it does amuse me when I go home and they are both sat on the sofa playing on their phones! This is not just a teenager phenomenon
Yes!! It’s an epidemic. We have to remind my mother in law when she’s visiting that we don’t allow phones during meal times and her response is “I’ll do what I want. I’m an adult.” 😳
Both her and my Dad are widows and I think all the alone time has made it even worse. Their phones are now their closest companions.
I feel like keeping them out of learning spaces is a sensible thing to try and do, although amazingly there's not been much actual research yet on the effects of doing this vs not doing this (it feels intuitively obvious that no phones = better learning, but we need to be cautious about assuming anything in this space).
My son is 7 but I see 100+ students every week in a uni classroom. I really appreciated this perspective and scientific approach.
The phones seem to be a major impediment to learning, if not as much on MH as Haidt would suggest. I have students who just scroll while I'm teaching or when their classmates are talking. And they are openly twitchy if they don't have their phone. I don't think they are taking anything in but also it's SHOCKINGLY RUDE... and I worry about them in adulthood. Not like adults are any better - regularly watch grown adults watching endless videos WITHOUT headphones on the train, nearly walk in front of traffic scrolling etc.
As a lecturer, I see a ton of MH concerns (often with very clinical language employed), and I find it so hard to figure out how to respond. It's just so unclear when they are using very precise clinical language - is this student in actual crisis with a need for emergency response? Or do they just having a bit of a tough time and need an extension? I spend many early morning hours worrying I've missed something and I'm going to get a horrific phone call.
Yeah it’s fascinating, that part, I agree. How do you hold the space and validate without exacerbating? That part of Lucy’s work is the part I find most interesting
This phenomenon of much more MH language is being seen internationally at universities (and schools). And everyone is asking this same tricky question about how much of it is a rise in the problem and how much of it is a change in language. And how do we ask those questions without dismissing or missing distress (or overreacting to a transient case of distress)
You may be interested in this that I wrote last year: https://lucyfoulkes3.medium.com/the-adolescent-mental-health-mess-c93f23f8ed56
Ooh thank you! We have an away day this week and I'm going to send it around for discussion.
This is such a great interview, the right questions asked and Lucy’s view refreshingly calm, balanced and positive. As a school counsellor working in a London secondary school, a lot of the themes resonated with me. Thank you
I'm so glad to hear that it was galvanizing from someone working in this incredibly stressful field!
thank you, glad you enjoyed it - and thank you for all the work you do with young people
Thanks for this Pandora. Thought provoking, informative and Hope giving most welcome 🌺
What a fab interview! I loved the comments on what actually defines peer pressure (which makes a tonne of sense how often the term is misunderstood/misused) and phones in schools debate. So good in theory but the logistics are clearly an absolute nightmare, kids are so smart of course they have found all the ways around those locking systems. And the relationship between phones/class/social mobility can't be overlooked !!!! I remember it at school with BBM on blackberries and then subsequently when the first iphones came out - it became huge social currency.
The anecdote about the girl who was so angry she didn't have BDP is really interesting!
It's good to know despite being many years away from being a teenager, I still know whats up emoji wise - receiving a thumbs up is peak!! something my mum can't get her head round.
You raise exactly the points that I think are being overlooked, which is a) logistics and b) how bans don't work (um, prohibition?) and can exacerbate the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. No-one is saying that phones are net good for young kids. But it's about education (as most things are) and the parental-kid relationship... Something my brother did, which I thought was a fantastic idea, is that the WiFi didn't work in his kids rooms. They could use their phones and laptops downstairs but not tucked away in their bedrooms, which is where i think the majority of the 'bad stuff' happens: in those intimate spaces. Nothing is ever a net bad, as much as people want it to be. PS, I prefer a heart to a thumbs up tbf
I think that's a really nice example of how there can be a kind of halfway house for young people to gradually and more safely experience being online
Thanks so much!
I did just that. Grabbed a cuppa & biscuits in the sunshine. Really comprehensive breakdown of so many interlocking themes. I like the use of the term ' Teenagers are 'famously mecurial' Note to self re my teen.I would add that some schools do not necessarily have environments where teachers are communicating & engaging with students. Speaking isn't allowed in tutor time. The school day ends in silent reading. What used to be my experience c. 1970s/1980s, pastoral care was flexible and available to students; it just isn't there in some learning environments. We know that social isolation is a huge risk factor for poor mental health but some schools don't see that as an issue in the ' Modern age'. Not every Teen is engaged in social media. I agree it's easy to be assumptive and for parents to be easily triggered. We need to check in with ourselves too..
That's such an interesting note on how pastoral care has changed. (Virtually non-existent for me in the early 00s.) Maybe it connects to what Lucy was saying about how much more aggressively academic school has become? Less time for pastoral care. I think that note on how easily triggered parents are, is also pertinent. It's hard not to bring your own experiences to this. If you have a child who has an unhealthy relationship with their smartphone, or you know of one who has (say someone being bullied via social media), you are going to, quite understandably, feel very strongly about them being net bad. I think most people are approaching it through anecdata rather than actual data.
This is a really important point - everyone knows specific stories where phones can be really awful (including me), and those anecdotal stories are so powerful. It's totally understandable why, when something happens in your own house in particular, you just wish smartphones were never invented
Tech without stress is a great resource, thank you!
So glad you found it helpful! They're brilliant
This is such a great interview!
thank you so much Nicola, I'm so glad it resonated
So interesting to hear about the pushback on The Anxious Generation! I expect any way forward will rely on kids learning how to manage their screen and social media use. I'm currently dreadful at that myself so trying to get better at it before my kids start asking for phones.
I think a lot of what Haidt says is really interesting. Same with his first book. But I do think it's important that a) he does not work in the field of adolescent psychology and b) there is huge controversy over how he interprets/ 'teases' out/ extrapolates data. It's just important to be cognisant of it, I think, when engaging with his work. I'd personally love to see more kids playing outside. But that has to be viewed in the context of how many youth spaces have been shut done! From libraries to sports centres to village halls. Teens spending time online is often because access to free, community spaces has been grossly diminished...
I love this. There's some really interesting work being done about designing public space for teenagers - TfL are planning a play space in Kidbrooke square that includes a meditation and yoga space, following consultation with teens. It'd be great to these design approaches expanded
I had no idea about TfL! Going to read up on this. Have you read The Lonely Century by Noreena Hertz? She has some fascinating research on how hostile public spaces have become (and how that has impacted loneliness) for EG spikes on bollards so teenagers can't loiter, benches being taken away from public areas
I also didn't know about the TfL plan, that's great to hear! These guys are also doing great things to create spaces for teens:
IRL Revolution: https://www.irlrevolution.co.uk/
Make Space For Girls: https://www.makespaceforgirls.co.uk/
Thanks - re pushback against Anxious Generation among researchers, it really has been massive, on a scale I've not seen before - no one studying the effects of social media thinks he has fairly described the data. If you're interested in managing your own phone use, I'd really recommend Pete Etchells' work, including his book Unlocked- he offers a reassuring and helpful perspective on how to think about our own phone use (as well as young people's).
Such an interesting read!